Ever wondered what it’s like to be a “vet”s vet”? Meet Dr. Doug Mader, a triple-board certified specialist who treats everything from cats and dogs to reptiles, amphibians, and even 350-pound alligators. In this episode, we dive into his fascinating journey from the gritty streets of inner-city Los Angeles to the sun-drenched shores of Key West, where he now spearheads critical wildlife conservation and exotic pet care. From performing surgeries on sea turtles to his bond with mentally challenged snakes, Dr. Mader shares the powerful stories behind his memoir and his life-long dedication to the human-animal bond.
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The Vet At Noah’s Ark!! – Dr. Douglas Mader
Janet, I have a new favorite book. You know I don’t have many.
This is true.
The Vet at Noah’s Ark is by Dr. Doug Mader, who is triple boarded. What does that mean? A specialist not only for cats and dogs, but also for reptiles, amphibians, and herpetology. What’s herpetology, Janet?
Study of herpes.
That was pretty good, but no. Snake. I have so looked forward to meeting Dr. Mader because we have mutual indirect friends. I hear Dr. Mader is in Key West. I had no idea when I was reading the book that this was a memoir when your office was in the hood in LA. Now, he’s cross-country to Key West. I couldn’t put it down, number one. I’m looking forward to the next book.
There are all these stories that I want you to talk about. He had a skunk with a heart problem. Mickey, the monkey, couldn’t walk. I’m not going to give it all away. He is a vet’s vet. When an injured animal, no matter what the species, comes through that door, I would have complete confidence in him as opposed to me. Welcome, Dr. Doug Mader.
Thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here and share the hour with you all.
Dr. Doug Mader’s Move From Los Angeles To The Florida Keys
Thank you. May I ask, out of my curiosity, before we get into all the interesting cases, what caused the trek across the country to the Keys?
I was born here.
I did not know that.
My father was in the service. I was born in the Upper Keys, and he was working up in Homestead at the Military base. Being an Army brat, we moved around quite a bit, and then eventually, Uncle Sam took him off to Vietnam. The family moved to a Military base in Hawaii, which is where I grew up until I left for college. I ended up in California for a little over twenty years.
I love to scuba dive. In California, the water is extremely cold. My wife and I said, “I’d love to go back to where I was born and go diving in the Keys, where it’s warm. You don’t have to wear a wetsuit.” We came out to the Keys to see where I was born, and it was like a salmon coming home. I didn’t go back to breed. I came back because that was where I was born.
We came to the Keys to see where I was born, and it felt like a salmon returning home. I didn’t come back to breed — I came back because it’s where I belong. Share on XIt was calling me to come back, so I looked at houses when we were there on vacation. The cost of living was maybe 1/5 of what it was in California. I invested in a small cabin. About 4 or 5 years later, I ended up moving here permanently and started all over. I love it here. It’s so different. The first book is in Los Angeles. The second book, which is in press, is also in Los Angeles. The third book is in the Florida Keys.
Did you buy an existing practice in the Keys or open your own there? I know you opened your own, but you know what I’m saying.
My wife is also a veterinarian. The wife that I moved here with is not the wife in the book. You’ll learn about that in book three. She’s also a veterinarian from Switzerland. We moved here, and she went to work for an existing practice. When I first moved here, I was lecturing, writing, and then working as a consultant online, making more money than I ever made in my life with no employees. It was a lovely job.
We had a nasty hurricane in 1998. The owner of the practice where my wife was working, his wife said, “I can’t do this again. I’m leaving. Either go with me, or we’re getting a divorce.” He did a fire sale. He sold the practice to my wife. He left. My wife had never run a practice. I had owned a practice in Los Angeles for over ten years, so I said, “Listen. I’ll help you, but I like my life of sitting in a hammock, working online, and doing consulting, lecturing, and writing.”
I started helping her in the new practice, and we got so busy so fast. It was a one and a half doctor practice. When I jumped in with her, within 6 months, we hired our 3rd doctor. Eventually, we’re up to ten doctors. We had to build a new hospital. It ended up being a big city referral center in the middle of nowhere. That’s how we got here.
I assume there are a lot of exotic pets in the Keys.
There are. It’s interesting. I saw a heck of a lot more exotic pets when I was in LA, but here in the Keys, I do a lot of wildlife work. One of the things that encouraged me to move to the Keys when I left California was that I started working at the sea turtle hospital. All they do is sea turtles. I was their main vet for 24 years. On the island that I live on, we have the smallest ungulate in North America. It’s called the Key deer. It’s a white-tailed deer. It’s about the size of a greyhound. They’re cute. They’re like little bonsai deer.
Do you see many of them as patients, though?
I am the vet that does all the work for the US Fish and Wildlife. We sold our hospital a couple of years ago. When I owned the hospital, if they needed surgery, I would take them up there. Since I sold the hospital, I take care of a small zoo in Key West, and we have a little hospital there. If I have a deer that gets hit by a car and needs care, then I take them down to the zoo and work on them there. I’ve worked on whale sharks, sperm whales, pilot whales, pygmy whales, and all sorts of dolphins. I’ve worked on lots of wildlife. Alligators up the wazoo.
Have you been bitten?
No.
I used to volunteer at CROW on Sanibel. I remember the former director was bitten. She had a pretty good bite on her arm.
From the alligator?
Yeah. It wasn’t a big one either.
Have you seen the picture of me? It made the cover of a couple of magazines. I’m swimming with one of my patients named Casper. He’s about a 350-pound alligator. I’m holding him in my arms, and he looks like he’s smiling.
That better be in the next book.
That’ll be in book three.
I’m interested in the Key deer because I think they’re adorable. They come in injured, but do they get anything in common? I know they can have Demodex mites. What would you see them for regularly, if at all?
The number one cause of death is vehicles. Almost everything is human interactions, anthropogenic, that’s causing death. Number one is vehicles, hands down. Number two is probably that animals get into trash cans, and then they ingest foreign material and get blockages. It could be they get into the trash, and they get stuff stuck on their feet or wrapped around their heads, or maybe they get tangled up in somebody’s fishing net, hanging on their back porch.
After that, we do have a handful of natural diseases. I’m not even aware of them getting Demodex. They do get a type of mite. Probably the most common ectoparasite they get is lice. It’s seasonal. We’re coming out of our dry season. The lice are bad when the humidity is low, and it’s dry. As soon as it starts raining, all the lice clear up and go away.
When I first started to volunteer at CROW, the first day I went in there, the vet tech had a white washcloth on the top of her head and was working with a Pelican. I said, “What’s going on here?” It was the lice.
They’re nasty.
Wildlife Work Including Key Deer And Dealing With Lice
I remember my husband and I were walking on the beach in Sanibel, or I was. he gets the call, “Bring the beach towel and the box.” He knows we’re going to run something up to CROW. We put it in the car, and he said, “Can I put it in the back seat?” I went, “No. We’re going to get lice in the car.” Do you see a lot of pelicans?
We do. We have two wild bird centers, one in Key West and one in Marathon. We live right in the middle between the two. My wife does all the work for the wildlife centers. She does a lot of pelicans. If they have a complicated case, they’ll call me in because I’m a surgeon. She’s a good surgeon, but she doesn’t know how to do some of the stuff.
One thing, though, for the reader’s sake, is that lice are very species-specific. They will jump off a pelican. They’re big, nasty suckers on the pelicans. They’re biting lice, so they’ll jump on you and might bite you, but you’re not the right host, so then they jump off. That doesn’t ameliorate the fact that you get covered with them.
Do you know one of my favorite words? I can say this. It’s not one of the seven you’re not allowed to say on TV or FCC bands. It’s called formication. Have you ever heard of that? Formication is the feeling of ants crawling over your body. You’ll pick up one of these pelicans, or you’ll work with a Key deer. The next thing you know, all of the lice jump on you, and they’re crawling all over you. You get that feeling of formication
It drives you crazy, but you shower and get rid of them. They don’t stay on you because you’re the wrong host. Remember, the birds have a body temperature of about 106 to 107. We’re at 98.7. The lice jump on you, realize you’re not the right host, and then jump off. Still, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s gross.
I remember our mom had chickens growing up, and that they would get lice from the chicken coop.
I didn’t know that.
The lice don’t stay on the people. They’ll jump on the people. You’ll get bitten and get itchy, but then they jump off. The difference is that they won’t reproduce on you. Whereas if the lice jump on a chicken, they’re going to have romance, and they’ll have more lice. If they jump on you, they may bite or cause a rash, but then they’re going to come off.
That brings me to when I was a senior vet student at Ohio State. We manned the phones. The most common call we got was, “Can my dog get lice from me?”
Head lice?
Pubic lice. The dogs were sleeping in bed with them. I’ll never forget that. I was like, “I got another lice call here.” Honest to God.
You’ve probably read the paper. There is a paper that has been published about a dog in Berkeley that got pubic lice from its owner. I won’t go into any more detail than that.
I did not read that.
Have you ever treated the Hemingway cats?
No. My wife has. They have a house call vet that does all of their cats for them. She’s a house call vet, so she doesn’t have surgery facilities. Every once in a while, they would get a cat that would need an intervention, whether it be an ultrasound, an endoscopy, or possibly surgery. To answer your question, I have but I’m not their vet.
That’s cool. What counts as an exotic pet?
Flip it around. The domestics are going to be your dogs, cats, rabbits, ferrets, pigs, sheep, goats, horses, and cattle. Almost everything else is going to be considered exotic or non-domestic.
Janet, this is what I learned from the book. Is this still true, Dr. Mader, that you’re not allowed to have a ferret as a pet in California? Is that still true?
California and Hawaii are the only two states where you’re not allowed to have ferrets.
Why is that? Do you know?
There’s a lot of politics involved. One of the concerns that the California Department of Fish and Game had was that the ferrets would get out in the wild, and they would destroy and upset the balance of the native wildlife. They haven’t done that anywhere else in the United States. Maybe there’s something special or some invisible force field around the state of California that changes things if a ferret comes into California.
One of my very good friends is the Head of the California Department of Fish and Wildlife Veterinarians. We have this conversation all the time. I don’t know why they haven’t allowed it. I know there’s a lot of politics behind it. What was interesting, and I talk about this in the book, is that nowhere in the law in California does it say you can’t treat a ferret. It just says you can’t own one.
Remember, in our Hippocratic oaths that we took, we’re supposed to end suffering. If somebody brings you a sick ferret, in California, you can say, “I’m not comfortable treating this. It’s an illegal animal,” or you can say, “It’s sick. I’m going to treat it.” We did. We advertised in the yellow pages that we treated ferrets because there’s nothing in the law that says you can’t advertise. We saw a ton of ferrets. When I first moved to the Keys, Charles River Laboratories owned two islands. There are hundreds of islands in the Florida Keys.
Was it Raccoon Key?
Yes, Raccoon and Lois Key. There are 43 main islands connected by 42 bridges, stretching out over 120 miles from Miami. There were two private islands owned by Charles River Laboratories, Raccoon Key and Lois Key. They had wild colonies of macaques on those islands. You may not know this or you may, but I did my residency in primate and zoo animal medicine. I had come down here and spent some time on these islands with the primates. They’re the healthiest, most beautiful animals you’ve ever seen because they’re living in the wild. In the rain, the humidity, the thunder, the lightning, the bugs, all the stuff that normal monkeys live in.
I don’t want to get into the politics behind it, but eventually, they got sued by PETA. PETA couldn’t get them to get rid of the monkeys because the monkeys were so healthy, so then PETA got wise. They sued Charles River, not over the monkeys living on the islands, but over the monkeys destroying the mangrove trees. Which are protected trees in the state of Florida. They won the environmental lawsuit. Charles River had to take several thousand monkeys from the natural habitat that they were living in and put them in cages.
Other than that, there are pet monkeys, but not too many. I did my residency in primate medicine. I love monkeys but I do not endorse people having pet monkeys. I will see them because I feel like it’s my duty to take care of the monkeys. I always tell people, “I don’t think it’s a good idea to have pet monkeys.”
I have a question. Are there certain exotic animals that make surprisingly great pets, and then are there some that are a challenge?
It’s on a person-by-person basis. There are certain snakes or certain lizards that make good pets. You take that same snake that could be a good pet, and you give it to an ophidiophobe, which is a fancy word for somebody afraid of snakes. They’ll prolapse and it won’t go so well. I think so. I have a pet macaw. I personally don’t like big birds in cages, but I inherited the macaw from my ex-wife. She turned 35. She’s one of my best friends in the world. She doesn’t live in a cage. She lives in a big playpen.
I’m going to jump aside a little bit here. The human-animal bond is powerful. I know you’ve talked about those zillion times. What people don’t realize is that the human-animal bond isn’t just with a young girl and her horse, or an older lady and her canary, or somebody sitting, petting a cat on their lap, watching TV. The human-animal bond can be anything. It can be me and my macaw. I have a snake that’s got developmental abnormalities. He’s mentally challenged. If I didn’t hand-feed him, and I’ve had him for eleven years, he’d have been dead a long time ago. I have a bond with him.
The human-animal bond is powerful. Most people think it’s limited to a girl and her horse or someone petting a cat on their lap, but the truth is, that bond can take any form. Share on XThe Power Of The Human-Animal Bond And Losing Pets During A Hurricane
If it wasn’t for me, he’d be dead. He makes me happy because I know I’m keeping him alive. Look at people who have pet fish. I can share with you from a personal perspective. We had a horrific hurricane here in 2017. We had a Cat 5 come across. We lost our house, and we evacuated with my whole zoo. We loaded up the SUV, and I couldn’t bring my fish. I had a huge fish tank that some of my fish had had for over fifteen years. I couldn’t evacuate my fish tank.
I had backup pumps, backup batteries, backup this, backup that, and everything I could possibly do. When you have a hurricane coming, you don’t think it’s going to affect you. I came back after the hurricane, and it destroyed the house. The aquarium was a huge aquarium. It got moved, but it didn’t spill. I had two. One of them spilled out. I can only hope that those fish are off swimming and happy somewhere. The other one, because the power, oxygen lines, and life support were destroyed, all my fish died.
To this day, that hurts me more than losing my house. Since I didn’t evacuate with those fish, those fish are dead. I’ll never get them back. They were fish that were part of my life, some of them for fifteen years. The human-animal bond is real. People think, “You can’t have a bond with a fish.” You can. I come home from work, and the fish are all sitting on the side of the aquarium. They’re excited to see me, not because we talk a lot, but because they know I’m going to feed them. If I had a crappy day at work, I feed the fish, they’re happy, and that makes me smile. That human-animal bond is real, and it crosses species. To answer your question, Janet, I think a lot of exotic pets make good companions.
There was a paper not too long ago that proved fish recognize their owners.
They do. I said I had a fairly large aquarium, and it was in the living room. The fish knew me. They knew my wife. They knew our pets. If we had guests come over and visit, and the guests would walk up to the aquarium, all the fish would swim to the back and hide behind the rocks and stuff because they didn’t recognize the people.
Turtles are like that, too. Turtles, to me, are very emotional. In the books I’ve read about people who do turtle rescue, a lot of people who have had problems in their past, like ex-drug users and things like that, bond with turtles. There’s a spirituality there that I think is lovely.
I don’t remember how many thousand in general there are, but there are quite a few. They have great personalities. They have good hearing. They’ve got a great sense of smell. Hands down, the most common turtle is the sulcata, also called the African spurred turtle. It became popular in the early ‘90s with Hallmark.
Every year, during Easter, Hallmark would have this commercial. It would be a big turtle wearing rabbit ears, and then an actual rabbit, and there would be a Cadbury egg right in front of it. It was a TV commercial. The original turtle was one of my clients when I lived in LA. That commercial spurned the desire for people to go out and buy it because they’re cool. Turtles have phenomenal personalities. The problem is that they’re the third-largest tortoise in the world, and they grow fast.
In 10 years, they’re over 100 pounds, so people buy them when they’re this big. People can’t keep them in their apartment. Even if they have a small yard, they’re like bulldozers and destroy everything in your yard. They think, “The zoo will take it.” Guess what? We have fifteen of them at the little local zoo. We can’t take any more. We don’t have any room. I got a call from the sheriff’s office. They found a big sulcata walking on the side of the highway. Somebody dumped it.
What bothers me, too, about people who get turtles is how much you see nutritional deficiencies in them. They have no clue.
You can use that across the board with exotics. They’re like, “I got a new hedgehog.” I’d be like, “What do you feed it?” They’re like, “Dog food.” They’re like, “I got a new frog.” I’d be like, “What do you feed it?” They’re like, “Dog food.” It’s a contrived environment. We give them an artificial diet. We do for them what we think they need or want, not necessarily what they really need or really want.
That’s going back to your comment, Janet, about what animals are good pets. A lot of these animals are good pets, but they don’t make good pets if you don’t know how to care for them. The animal suffers, which is tough. That’s hard, as a doctor, for me to see because many times, when you do exotic animal work, it’s not medical issues. It’s husbandry issues.
A lot of these animals can make great pets, but only if you know how to care for them. Otherwise, the animal is the one that suffers. Share on XI remember in the book about the woman turtle expert who brought the one into you. I was waiting for you to clip her. I knew as soon as she brought it in and you said it was emaciated and near death, I thought, “She probably was starving it or giving it the wrong nutrition.”
That’s sadly common.
I was going to ask that question. How do owners know what the right diet is? That’s so important.
Google. What happens is they go online. If it’s online, it’s got to be true. I’m going to digress because I do this all the time. I got ADHD or whatever you want to call it. I’m married to a veterinarian who’s one of the brightest people I’ve ever met. I’ve got a decent education. I’m triple board certified. My sister will read something online. She’ll ask us about it, and we’ll say, “I’m sorry. That’s not correct.” She’ll say, “I read it online.”
I go, “Diane, do you want to believe something that you read online from somebody that you don’t know, or do you want to believe something from somebody you’re related to who’s got a higher education and is very academic that you know and trust?” She’ll say, “I read it online.” It’s the same thing with the food. Somebody online says, “You’ve got a pet Belgian Pocono snake. You should be feeding these tootsie rolls. That’s what I do.” It’s like, “I read it online, so I’ve got to go buy some tootsie rolls.” The vet says, “You need to feed it small mice,” and they’re like, “I can’t do that.”
Remember the client who only wanted to feed vegetarian?
Yeah.
What animal was that? It was a reptile.
It was a black and white tegu. It’s a carnivorous lizard.
Janet, she said to Dr. Doug, “I can’t feed it. I’m a vegetarian or vegan, whichever. I can’t feed my animals another animal base.” He’s like, “You’re going to kill it.” Did she give it to you? What was the story of that?
She didn’t give it to us. She boarded it permanently with us so that we could feed it. She paid for the boarding and all the food. She personally could not feed it a live animal or even a dead animal. I recommended that she feed it pre-killed animals, and she wouldn’t do that either. She couldn’t have it in her house. We had that animal for years.
I’m going to ask you a question. Does every veterinarian start out with basic vet school, and then you specialize?
It’s school by school. Alice, you can answer how your school was done. When I went to Davis, they had what was called a track system. When you get to your junior year, if you knew you were never going to work on a poodle and you were only going to do cattle, you could do what’s called a food animal track. You are still required to take small animal medicine classes because you need to pass your state boards, but you would take extra hours doing food animal stuff, whether it’s dairy cattle, meat cattle, pigs, or whatever.
We also had something called the zoo track. We could take extra courses in exotic animal work. At the time I went to vet school, which seems like the dark ages now, we were 1 of only 3 schools that offered exotic animal medicine. That’s the way we did it back then. I know my school still does that. They have a track system. What about you, Alice? Did they offer different options?
We didn’t have a zoo track. You’re right. That’s what I was going to ask you. Where did you get all of that exotic animal experience? We didn’t get that. They were small animals. I pretty much knew I was going into derm because I don’t like surgery. Anyone who does surgery, I gush over them because I think that blood and those blood vessels should stay in here. I knew I was going to do derm from the get-go.
We did not have exotics. We had a good raptor rehab unit, which I volunteered at. That was interesting to me. I always remember this. We would all go around and get all the pop cans because at 8:00 class, they would make a noise. We’d go and collect all those. That’s what funded our raptor rehab program at Ohio State, at least back in the ‘80s when I was there.
How fun.
Did you turn in the cans?
Yeah. We turned in the cans and got the money. We did not have exotics. That’s why I was so fascinated when I read your book. What year did you graduate from UC Davis?
1986.
I was ‘89 at Ohio State. I had another career before this. I thought to myself, “Where did he get all that exotic experience?” I’m very envious of that. I think that’s cool.
Exotic Animal Training, Vet School Track System, And Key Mentors
I was very fortunate on two accounts. Number one, Dr. Murray Fowler was the head professor. He was 1 of the original 6 veterinarians who started the American Association of Zoo Veterinary Group. He’s Dr. Zoo. He’s amazing. There was another veterinarian who lived in Davis. He was an adjunct professor at UC Davis.
His name was Dr. Fred Frye. He is what everybody considers the godfather of reptile medicine. He wrote all the reptile books way back before I was even in vet school. I got to know him well. We became extremely good friends. I had two very good mentors, and then I read a lot. I had always been a very avid reader. I did as much reading and volunteering as I could. That’s how I got the experience.
You have to have that love to learn. Even though I’m retired, and I’m doing a bunch of stuff, Janet will tell you, I’m probably listening to 1 or 2 podcasts or webinars a day. You’ll have to see it. If you don’t get it, I’ll send it to you, Dr. Mader. In Nature, there was a good article on octopus and their anatomy, how they have three hearts. It was fascinating. It also showed how the study of their vision is so different from that of any other animal.
It’s the same with their neurotransmitters. It was only a couple of pages. I couldn’t put it down. I tore that out before I got rid of the rest of the journal. It’s so cool to always be learning. I’m sure I’m not going to treat one. The other thing that’s interesting about octopuses is that they are protected in the UK and Europe when they’re studied in labs, not in this country.
They’re not under the USDA at all. They’re under the Animal Welfare Act, but not under the USDA.
They said most people who work with them in this country still abide by the same rules and regulations. I’m like, “Maybe.”
This is me dissociating as I always do. Have you seen the movie My Octopus Teacher?
It’s fabulous.
That was Sally Field?
No. Craig Foster wrote it. He won an Academy Award for it. If you haven’t seen it, you need to see it. It’s amazing.
I did see it.
It’s something.
Is that with the gentleman who then brings his daughter in? She wanted an octopus. That was a documentary, I think, I saw.
He has a son.
I didn’t see it.
He lives in South Africa. A very long story short, he goes swimming every morning, and the water down there was 40 degrees. He does it without a wetsuit. He’s also a videographer. He does nature videos. He made friends with an octopus. He documents his relationship with this octopus. He shares with the viewer what he learned from the octopus. I don’t want to share any more than that. It’s an extremely good book and an extremely amazing movie. It’ll tear your heart out, so have a box of Kleenex with you.
The other one that I thought was good was a documentary about these 2 or 3 men in India who rescue Kites, the birds. They feed on these big mounds of trash. Here in this little shed, these guys are with pennies on the dollar, trying to bring these Kites back to life. I don’t usually watch the Academy Awards. I watched it that year because I was hoping they would win. I don’t think they won, but it brought a lot of attention to their cause. It’s another tear-jerker one, too.
I remember the skunk patients that we saw in LA that had heart disease. I was a hospital pharmacist before I was a vet. One of the doctors there, Dr. Masteller, who was one of the psychiatrists, called me up one night at home because he knew I was in vet school, and I was still working part-time as a pharmacist. He said, “My goat has congestive heart failure.”
At the time, we didn’t have pimobendan. We had digoxin. This was back in the early ‘90s. He said, “Can you find out if I can use that in a goat?” I have to tell you, Dr. Doug. Had I known you then, I would have called you. I called the Washington DC Zoo. You know how in veterinary medicine, we all know each other. I called everybody. Nobody could give me an answer on that.
What did you do?
He did put it on Lasix. I know that. I don’t think he ever put it on dig.
In situations like that, you have to be a pioneer. You have to try it, understanding that, unfortunately, sometimes it doesn’t work. I’ll give you an example that I will carry. I’m dissociating as I always do. I’m sure, Alice, people have asked you, “How many animals have you saved in your life?” People ask me that question all the time. I think a lot, but the ones that I remember are the ones I didn’t save.
It haunts me.
When I first moved here to the Keys, and I started working with the sea turtles, the guy who owned the sea turtle hospital didn’t have a vet. He used the vets from the University of Florida, but that’s ten hours away. They could only come down here every 2 or 3 months to help out. He would have turtle cases that were sick or injured, that sadly would sit there for weeks before a vet would come.
When I started coming, it was amazing for him because I could check on the turtles every day. I remember the very first time I did surgery on a turtle, it was a turtle that got its flipper chewed off by a shark. I had to amputate the stump of the flipper, or what was left of the stump. I’m closing it all up. It was very rudimentary. It was a picnic table surgery. When I was all done, I said, “What do you have for pain meds?” He goes, “What do you mean?” I go, “I want to give the turtle some pain medication because he had his flipper amputated.” He goes, “We don’t do that here.” That freaked me out.
You read my book. I was in a horrible car accident. I’ve had 27 surgeries. I don’t like pain, and I don’t want my patients to be in pain. One thing I was taught in school, especially in my residency, was how important post-op analgesia is. I went ahead and bought a bottle of Banamine. Flunixin maglumine is the name of the actual drug. At the time, that was non-steroidal. It’s like an ibuprofen-type drug.
This was one of the first non-steroidals.
Pioneering Medicine And The Personal Cost Of Treating New Species
Keep in mind, this goes back many years. I went ahead and used my own money. I bought a bottle. The next time I did surgery, I did 2 surgeries on 2 turtles. I went in and gave each of them a shot of the Banamine. It’s for large animals, but off-label or extra-label, you could use it in dogs, not in cats. I used it in the turtles, and guess what? I killed them both. Here I am, I killed two endangered species. That’s not good.
The first thing I did was publish it because I don’t want anybody else to do it. I made a huge mistake, but nobody else had done it before. I felt like I had to do something to provide analgesia for these animals, so I did what I knew worked in other species, but it didn’t work in the sea turtles. In fact, it killed them. Now, because of my screw-up, they know not to use it. A lot of times, like the digoxin in the goat, you have to try it and understand that it may work. Nothing may happen, or you could have a bad experience.
It might get destroyed in the rumen. Nothing ever happened.
Alice, I know you walk on the Florida beaches. You’ve taught me what to do if I see an injured animal. What are the tips for our audience who find a raccoon that’s still alive or a seagull on the shore? What do we do? We’re out there on the beach. We’re somewhere. How do you help that animal and get it to a facility?
That’s a toughie because, number one, you never want a person to get injured. Number two, you don’t want the animal to be injured. If you don’t know how to handle that animal, you shouldn’t touch it. Even if you see an injured raccoon, you also have to go an extra step, too. I live in a special world here. We live on an island. We don’t have rabies. We don’t have Balylisascaris, which is the nasty worm that raccoons carry that can kill people.
I know that in the majority of the country, you do have rabies. Why is that raccoon injured? Maybe it had rabies. It’s neurologic. It wandered out into the road and got hit by a car. You go to pick it up, and it bites or scratches you. Now, you’ve got rabies. I am not going to sit here and tell people to go out there, very carefully catch it, put it in a garbage can, and take it to the wildlife center. The thing to do is to call animal control.
Hopefully, they have the proper phone network set up where they know to call a wildlife person who specializes in raccoons or maybe small mammals or a bird person or whatever. The thing to do is, morally, you don’t want to walk away from it, but you should at least make an effort to call animal control and then report it. That’s something that can be done. You don’t want to get hurt, and you don’t want them to get hurt.
As a human, I want to do something. That’s good advice to call animal control because I wouldn’t know what to do with a wild animal.
Did you see it on the news? I saw it. There was an otter acting crazy in this river. There were these 4 or 5 teenage boys. Who else gets harmed by stuff? Teenage boys.
It wasn’t an otter. It was a beaver.
They say the beaver has rabies. I thought it was a river otter, Janet. It was a mammal.
They picked up the beaver and threw it back. It was bizarre. It was insane. Those things are solid. They’re not small.
If they have to go through the rabies series, that would be a shame. I was exposed to a rabid cow back in vet school, back in the day.
In California?
Yes. I, a couple of other techs, and a few other people who were exposed to it all had to go through the rabies series. That was not fun.
In spite of the fact that you were already vaccinated. I’ll tell you an interesting story. My mother raised us with natural hygiene. I was never vaccinated for anything. When I got into vet school, you got this vaccine. Back in ‘85, when I got in, I got the monkey diploid one. They were also trying to get another one marketed. Since I had insurance, I’m like, “I’m not going to be part of that marketing. I’ll pay for the monkey diploid. I’ve got medical insurance.” I got sick, probably because I’d never been vaccinated for anything in my life. Do you check your titers very often, Dr. Mader?
I haven’t probably in the last couple of years because we don’t have rabies here.
That’s true.
I did when I was in California on a regular basis, but I have not in the last couple of years. We’re very lucky we don’t have it.
I had mine checked before I was volunteering at CROW because you couldn’t work with the raccoons unless you had a rabies vaccine. It was 800,000 times. How many years has that been? 40 years. Thank God.
When I got vaccinated originally, it was egg yolk-based and thick stuff. It hurt like heck. I had it in the stomach, and it was painful. You couldn’t breathe. You couldn’t bend over. You couldn’t cough. You couldn’t pee. You couldn’t poop. It was horrible. It was the worst vaccine I’ve ever had.
The worst one for me was when I got the shingles vaccine.
That was nasty, too.
For the first one, I was hurt for 3 or 4 days, and the next one was as bad. My husband came home from his annual physical on December 23rd, so Christmas Eve. He goes, “I got the shingles vaccine.” I’m like, Are you out of your mind? Christmas is in two days.” He was a mess for a week. He never went for the second one because he was so sick.
A lot of people don’t because of that, but you do need a second. I don’t remember the actual number, but it’s something like 65% to 97% protective.
What pets do you have now, Dr. Doug?
I have 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 snakes, a frog, 3 tortoises, and a macaw.
What kind of tortoises? The ones that get huge?
Dr. Mader’s Rescue Animals And The Burmese Star Tortoise Story
No, I didn’t get one of those. Everything I have is rescues. Most stuff is from clients who couldn’t afford their bills and wanted to put the animal to sleep. I’m a terrible businessman. I say, “Give it to me. I’ll take it.” I have a leopard tortoise, Tracy. She was in the first book. I have a redfoot tortoise and a little star tortoise that I got after Hurricane Irma. It was sad.
One of my clients lost everything he owned as well. He was a very wealthy client. He purchased this tortoise called a Burmese star. He brought it to me. He was in tears. He goes, “I can’t keep this tortoise. I’ve lost everything. I don’t even have a place to put it. Can you find a home for it?” I have always wanted a Burmese star tortoise, but they’re pricey. I could never afford one. I said, “I would be honored to give him a home. He’s going to outlive me, but I will do the best I can as long as I’m alive, if you’re willing to accept that.” He gave them to me. That’s how I ended up with him.
How cool. Speaking of that, what’s going on with the illegal importation of exotics into this country? What’s your opinion on that? Are we clamping down on that? I read horrible stories.
Back when I first started, pretty much all the exotics that we saw were imported. That’s birds, reptiles, you name it. Now, you can’t import that stuff anymore. The good news is that it’s led to good captive breeding. With captive breeding, you’ve got healthier populations. You don’t have the diseases that they bring in from the wild. You don’t have the parasites they bring in from the wild. You’re not depleting the wild populations. It doesn’t mean that poaching still doesn’t occur in these other countries. It’s not being sent legally here to the United States, but they are being sent elsewhere.
I travel a lot. I’ve been very fortunate in my career, and I get to travel quite a bit. I went to Indonesia. I was lecturing in Jakarta. I went to this huge reptile show. Ninety percent of the stuff they had there was imported. They were selling green iguanas in Jakarta. We have them running wild here. There’s still a huge illegal pet trade. Fortunately, this country pretty much shut it down.
Dr. Mader, what is your pet or human peeve?
My human peeve is with work, having owned a hospital for so many years and having many employees. My biggest peeve was running out of stuff. When you open the last bottle of vitamins or whatever, you write it down so we can order more.
As a pharmacist, I can tell you that’s my pet peeve.
My pet peeve for pets is usually not their problem. It’s a human problem. That is owners who let their dogs run loose, crap everywhere, and don’t clean up after them. They’re loose dogs. They call them at-large dogs with the animal control that go and attack other dogs and people. My own two dogs, which are very good, well-behaved dogs that I walk on a leash every single day, have been attacked three different times by loose dogs. To be honest, I carry a weapon.
My biggest pet peeve with pets usually isn’t the animal — it’s the humans. Owners who let their dogs run loose, leave messes everywhere, and don’t clean up after them. Share on XI pack heat. No question.
When you walk the dog, do you?
I do.
He does, but I don’t. I’m not walking at Hinkley Lake anymore because Annie always came back with ticks. Gidget, I don’t walk. They have a big yard here. I’m with you, Dr. Mader. I love it when I start to spout off on someone, like, “Why do I have to leash my dog and you don’t have to follow the rules?” I get told it’s none of my business, and then I do the, “It is my business.”
I get that all the time. The island that I live on, pretty much the entire island, is refuge land because of the little Key deer that live here. In our county, it’s illegal not to have your dog on a leash. The fines are doubled on our island because it’s a refuge. People go, “My dog would never attack a deer.” The deer doesn’t know that. The deer sees a loose dog, and what does the deer do? It turns and runs out in the middle of the road and gets hit by a car.
Bless their hearts. I’m sure I’m going to get in trouble with the Tourist Development Council. The tourists come down here, and they want to see the deer, so what do they do? They take their bag of Doritos and shake it out the window of their car. All the deer come running out of the woods because all the deer want to eat. The tourists feed them and take their pictures and their selfies.
When I see that, I’m always polite. I’m extremely polite. I always stop and explain to people, “Please, it’s illegal to feed them. You can be fined.” I get the middle finger wave or the, “Screw you. I’m on vacation,” wave or some expletives, like 1 of the 7 words we can’t talk about. I finally have to say, “Listen. A) I’m the veterinarian for the Key Deer Refuge. I’m the one who has to treat it when it gets hit by a car and gets an infection. B) I’m also a sheriff’s deputy, so I can write you a ticket now, or I can take a picture and have it sent to you in the middle of your vacation.” I usually get a few choice words, and then they leave.
Janet, I need to become deputized. I never even thought about that. I could buy one of the fake ones.
You want to flash that badge.
That’s my dream.
You have to practice flipping out that badge.
Using Authority To Protect Wildlife And The Joy Of Writing A Book
I’m serious, because when it comes to an animal, you don’t even want to get started. When I was in vet school, and I came home on weekends, the idiots that lived next door to us, which was a divorced guy with twin boys, I sent the cops over there before. The woman cop came back and said, “They don’t have a mother.” I said, “Not my problem. My cat came home with a leg-hold trap on it. I want them prosecuted.” Long story short, I can’t even remember what I said to them because I was crazed. I didn’t have a gun at that time. I’ve toned it down. I would like to have some kind of badge.
I don’t think you’ve toned it down. You have to understand, Dr. Mader. Alice is very petite, but comes on strong.
I’m also like you, Dr. Doug. I’m OCD. Like, I’m doing a webinar on ectoparasites. One Hispanic vet said to me, “I talk fast, but I’ve never met anyone like you who talks faster than me.” I wrote him a thank-you note in Espanol. That was my major. When I’m thinking of something, if it’s not on track, I don’t want to forget to say it because then I’ll forget to tell someone, and they might learn this. I get it. I get where you’re coming from. I love the sheriff deputy thing.
Thank you, Dr. Mader. She’s onto something.
My second client when I moved to the Keys was very unique. We have a jail in Monroe County, and they have a zoo completely within the jail. It’s all taken care of by trustees. It’s the only one in the country where it’s within the bounds of the jail. It’s within the fences of the jail. I have been there with veterinarians since day one when I moved here.
Since I’m board-certified in different areas and I worked for the sheriff’s department, I was always their go-to expert for animal cruelty cases or anytime they needed an expert opinion on something. After about a month, the sheriff came to me, and he said, “We want to deputize you because when you go to court, not only are you a legal expert, but then you’re also a sheriff’s deputy as well.” They deputized me, and I’ve been carrying a badge for the last couple of years.
You’re like Elvis. Elvis was deputized.
I didn’t know that.
He was. Our sister lived in Memphis. She has an Elvis file, not a photo.
Dr. Mader, when does the new book come out?
It’s slated to come out on December 15th, 2026. For the new one, we haven’t picked the final name yet, but it’s probably going to be called The Vet from the Urban Jungle. It is also in Los Angeles. It will be out on December 15th, 2026. That depends on, without getting into politics, what happens with tariffs, paper supplies from China, and all that other stuff. If all the ducks line up, December 15th, 2026, is the release date for the book, and then I’m going to do a big launch at the VMX in Orlando in January 2027.
That’ll be cool. Two things. Carl Hiaasen appeared in Sanibel to talk. This was great because it’s all old people. Only one person passed out. The second question I have is, was Jimmy Buffett ever one of your clients?
No. I shared the same IT person with Jimmy Buffett. That’s the closest I ever got to him. Carl Hiaasen, if you notice, wrote a blurb on the back of the book. I met him because he had pet snakes. He loves snakes. I met him many years ago. He brought his snakes to me, and we hit it off. We became fast friends. He and I are still good friends after all these years. His wife knows my wife. We watched his kids grow up. He’s a super nice guy.
My husband loves his books. I could show you our shelf with all the Carl Hiaasen books.
Alice, I have to share one thing with Dr. Mader. The Novotny sisters, Alice and Janet, are not snake fans. What we do when we’re out in our wild suburban yards is if we see one, we scream S-N-A-K-E because we can’t say it.
Snakes can’t spell, so they don’t know what you’re saying.
We’re hysterical over it. I have two cats. They are in and out cats. They’re fabulous. One day, it’s hanging from its mouth, and I’m running the other way. I’m going, “S-N-A-K-E in the cat’s mouth.”
I’m cat less right now because we’re restoring a home in Venice, Florida. We moved out of Sanibel. It was a lot with the two rescue Goldens and the old cats that were in kidney failure. I’m on a cat break right now, but I’m going to get to it as soon as I can.
That makes a lot of sense for you guys going back and forth.
We’re old. That trip gets harder every time.
We’ve got to wrap it up and say thank you, Dr. Mader. This has been fascinating.
I can’t wait for the next book. I’m serious.
Thank you.
I would be doing stuff in Venice. The house is going to take another year, probably. When I get home, I can read the next chapter. You always know you like a book when you can’t wait to get home and read more of it.
That is true.
Thank you. I’ve been told the second book is good or better than the first one, so I hope so.
Congratulations.
Who told you that? Carl?
Yes, but also all the beta readers and the editors. Quite a few people have enjoyed it.
Before we go, do you know Rusty Moore? He’s the Dean at Ohio State. He’s my classmate. He’s on his third book on the human-animal bond.
I know who he is.
Rusty and I had a talk. All three of us are veterinarians, and you and he turned out to be authors. It’s like a whole different world. He’s on his third book, too. After the first one came out, he was already starting the third. You sound very similar. These publishers know when it catches on.
I’ve written countless peer-reviewed articles in three medical textbooks. As I told you at the beginning of the show, one of my goals when I was still in pre-high school was to write a book for the general audience like James Herriot. I’m at a stage of my career where I have time to do that. It’s my sunset career, my passion, and my happy place. I hope to keep writing for many years to come.
Can I ask you? The writing style is so easy. Do they advise you on that, or is this just you?
It’s me. I wrote those things.
That’s good to know because you never know how much the editor cleans it up.
I was always told to be afraid of the editor. I wanted to hire an independent editor before I took it to the publishing houses because I wanted to be spotless. I got names of several editors, some from Carl Hiaasen and some from other people. I interviewed a bunch of editors, and I ended up going with this editor.
It turns out that he worked for HarperCollins and was the editor for James Harriot. He did the original James Harriot series. When he got my book, he said, “This is like deja vu. I would be thrilled to work with you on it.” He was the nicest guy. We worked and clicked so well. He made very few changes to my writing. He crossed the Ts and dotted the Is.
Janet, you’ll be getting one as well as our other sister. Hopefully, our other sister won’t be reading, and it’ll be a surprise for her. She’s a librarian.
That’s very cool.
Thank you so much, Dr. Mader. This has been incredible. We appreciate you and the work that you do. It’s fascinating.
Thank you.
It’s an honor for me.
She’s a fan.
Invite me back when the new book comes out. We can talk about that one.
That would be great.
You know I’ll read it.
Thanks for tuning in. Don’t forget to like us and share us. Look for a new episode every Wednesday.
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About Dr. Douglas Mader
Doug Mader is a triple board-certified veterinary specialist and has been a veterinarian for over three decades. He is an internationally recognized speaker, has written three best-selling medical textbooks and numerous book chapters and scientific publications, and has had long standing pet columns in the Long Beach Press Telegram, Reptiles magazine, and the Key West Citizen. Doug has also authored the award-winning memoir, The Vet at Noah’s Ark. Dr. Mader is the recipient of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service Award, the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine Alumni Achievement Award, and the Fred L. Frye Lifetime Achievement Award for Veterinary Medicine, and is a seven-time winner of the North American Veterinary Community Speaker of the Year award and a four-time winner of the Western Veterinary Conference Educator of the Year award. He is also a fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine in the UK. Dr. Mader practiced in California for many years, but today lives and works in the Florida Keys.
View all content contributed by Doug Mader, MS, DVM, DABVP (Canine/Feline Practice), DABVP (Reptile/Amphibian Practice), DECZM (Herpetology)